Fly Lah!

Dear Dreamliner
at the outset I take this oppurtunity to salute you for ur appreciation on rejection of take off at or just prior to approaching V1 and it is excellenty termed by you that a pilot should be go minded.But there are few disageements,especially where you have cited to Quoate"if none of the main failures cited below has occured;

The main ones are:
- Fire warning or severe damage
- Sudden loss of engine thrust
- Malfunctions or conditions that give unambiguous indications that the aircraft will not fly safely
- ECAM warnings such as:
- ENG or APU FIRE
- ENG FAIL
- CONFIG. (MAIN WARNINGS ONLY)
- ENG OIL LO PR
- ENG REV UNLOCKED
- L+R ELEV FAULT"

UNQUOATE

With my given experience I will still continue the take off coz irrespective of the emergencies as mentioned by u since any deviation from the calculated variables can lead to disasterous consequencesas mentioned by you earlier.It is more prudent to continue with the take off do a bad weather circuit if the ac is reluctant to climb and do a visual app and landing. Agreed the ac will be landing more then its max permissible landing weight and any way will have to undergo all the reqisite checks so no worry.
I have gone this turmoil as instinctively a pilot feels safe on runway and in my case i rejected the take off my four engine ac with AUW of 210 tonnes and with all braking devices we overshot the runway.Fortunately we had a fairly long stopway and just managed to stop at the very end.At the end of it one feels very stupid coz all the same the chair pundits will never spare u with their expert comments in hindsight
And the next time it happened was after four years and this time i continued with the take off and was on a much better hunting ground. Do give it a thought since the variables will lead to making a decision.So happy flying

hi sunilwings,

Thanks for the insight.

Point in case, with regards to the statement below :

Therefore, as speed approaches V1, the pilot should be "Go-minded" if none of the main failures cited below has occured;

The main ones are:
- Fire warning or severe damage
- Sudden loss of engine thrust
- Malfunctions or conditions that give unambiguous indications that the aircraft will not fly safely
- ECAM warnings such as:
- ENG or APU FIRE
- ENG FAIL
- CONFIG. (MAIN WARNINGS ONLY)
- ENG OIL LO PR
- ENG REV UNLOCKED
- L+R ELEV FAULT

I agree with you but i believe you might have misunderstood the above statement.

The statement above is by no means meant that one must reject the take-off etc and/or to so rigidly abide by it as it's a rough guideline unless it's an extremely severe damage whereby getting the aircraft airborne is not possible and/or pose greater hazardous threat(s).

Ultimately, it's at the discretion of the captain.

In the case of speeds fast approaching V1 or very close to V1 for that matter, one can always like you've mentioned, if the aircraft suffers no severe damage and runway length remaining does not permit etc, continue the take-off and return for a safe landing unless the malfunctions or conditions provide indications that the aircraft will not fly safely or suffers severe damage.

Again, many variables such as aircraft AUW, runway length, runway conditions (contaminated runway) etc etc etc does affect the outcome one way or the other despite the best decision(s) made.

After all, pilots are just humans, but we certainly can do our best to keep the skies safe.

Thank You very much for sharing your valuable thoughts, sunilwings, it's an honour to have you in this forum.

I hope it'll be an inspiration for all those newbies and those pursuing this elusive dream.

warm regards

Dear Dreamliner,

Thank you for bestowing the honour, but all the same I am just a humble pilot with varied experience in practically all aspects of transport flying, be it heavy drop/Para dropping or mid air refueling and I want to share all these experiences with one and all so that the transference of skill can take place and at the same time generate good healthy thought provoking ideas from which all can assimilate something or other. Furthermore doubts and misinterpretations can be clarified. Remember no two sorties are same so we have still a lot to learn from each other.

Coming to your post. I have not misinterpreted or misunderstood the emergencies cited by you. All of them are very critical when approaching or seconds away from V1. The point I was trying to make that there has to be a time lag maybe of 0.5 sec or more to recognize and identify the emergency by your sensory nerves, in which case you will be crossing the V1.Thats where I suggested continuing the take off. You must have noticed from the brake release point to 80 knots the aircraft is accelerating fairly fast and from here to reach V1 it sort of stagnates or gives the feeling it has slowed down. But in fact the aircraft is accelerating and now will take longer time to decelerate. WOW!!! Stopping 200 tons plus will require some force.

While handling critical emergencies I strongly feel that the following points should always be borne on mind.

(a) Always have the hand of your copilot or vice versa holding the base of throttles or thrust levers. This is not to allow any inadvertent creeping of the throttles back. We are not doing variable thrust take off
(b) If experiencing engine failure for which the physical input in form of more rudder to maintain direction will come instantaneously, do not try to identify and shut down the failed engine on the roll or on just getting airborne. This you can do when one has attained V2.It gives you time to do your actions deliberately and not in a hurry laced with anxiety. This gets accentuated when flying four engines. It is imperative the failed engine is shut down not the live one adjoining it. Twin engine the problem is halved.
(c) Dead leg dead engine. This is further confirmed by cross checking with N1, N2 RPM, EGT, OIL PR, and FUEL FLOW meters. Then shut down the dead ENGINE, ensuring throttle of only dead engine is brought back. Then only the LP and HP to be put off.
(d) Trim the ac as quickly as possible. Remember flaps and slats are down so you will get a poor climb gradient. Clean the ac only when u reach end of 2nd segment.
(e) Avoid the tendency to pull back on the stick (It is a natural human instinct but one has to get over it consciously) after getting airborne. Maintain a shallow attitude. Nothing will happen to the ac if it flies 50 feet of the deck but it will ensure you reach V2 at the earliest.
(f) Avoid turning till you have reached your min cct ht.Anticipate a wider and longer cct since you will be turning with 150 of bank, and in case your ROC drops reduce bank or take off bank.
(g) LASTLY MOST IMPORTANT KEEP YOUR COOL

Before we sum up the discussion today one should always be ready to accept emergencies. Never ever think it will not happen to you and will also never tell you it is coming today. For that be mentally ready and do your dry drills practice of emergencies everyday till it becomes your second nature. The level should be such that you can reach all the switches and levers blind folded. Therefore when it comes you are ready MATE. That’s the only difference between a good plus pilot and normal run of mill pilot.

Lastly if you do reject there are certain very important considerations to be kept in mind. The foremost is to apply all braking devices at higher speeds because that’s when they are most effective. Lower the nose wheel immediately it will make lot of bumps and noise but it is worth it to keep direction and apply thrust reversers.

So that’s it for the day awaiting your responses

HAPPY FLYING!!!!!!!!!!!

hi sunilwings,

yes, that was what i meant.

During take-off, as the speed is fast approaching V1 or very close to V1 for that matter, very few situations should lead to the decision to reject the take-off.

By the time you realised and take immediate corrective actions/procedures, the speed would have probably past V1, therefore, assuming no major/severe damage that indicates the aircraft will not fly safely, one can always continue the take-off and return for a proper and safe landing rather than risk it all.

I agree with you, that's why we are constantly being trained for all natures of emergencies in the simulators.

To sum it all, it's always good to bear in mind that:

Every take-off is an aborted take-off;
Every landing is a missed approach

warm regards

Hi Dreamliner
Now that we have reached a mutual consensus on the immediate action on engine failure while approaching V1 let us see what your reaction will be when taking off on a runway when it is snowing in other words a partial formation of ice is taking place as the snow flakes tend to freeze and start making a very thin layer of ice. However, the ice layer gets splashed due to the treads in tyre and now we have an engine failure good 20 kts before V1.Now should the pilot continue with take off coz logically he should abort. This is a very tough decision a pilot has to make and I will like to have the opinion of one and all and especially my friend DREAMLINER.

For me I will continue with take off and will try to justify on the response from your side. It has actually happened with me so lets share those tense moments

Happy Flying!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi sunilwings,

If you don't mind, could you elaborate more and explain in layman's terms, the "Difference between net and gross flight paths/performance??"

Your insight on this topic is very much appreciated..

Thanks in advance.

Hi Maverick,

If you take the designer’s performance manual which he would finally publish after the mandatory performance of the proto-type and the path the aircraft will define in all its performing parameters on a graph paper can be termed as gross performance. Remember these figures are worked out under ISA conditions so when the aircraft will actually fly it will have variance in its operating parameters due to changing variables especially the pressure altitude and temperature which play a very important role. Generally in most performance it is 0.9 of the gross performance and this is termed as net performance of the aircraft. Thus if you plot the path of the actual aircraft flying it will be lesser then the gross path and this is termed as net performance. Also variance in flying technique by the pilots, aging of the fleet, less power by engines with passage of time will degrade performance.

Therefore the actual performance can be termed as net.

I hope I have been to answer your query

Happy landings !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you for clearing any doubts that I have.

Happy Landings to you too!..

I had asked a question in one of my previous post that the immediate action on engine failure while approaching V1 is to REJECT.Let us see what your reaction will be while taking off on a runway when it is snowing in other words a partial formation of ice is taking place as the snow flakes tend to freeze and start making a very thin layer of ice on the runway surface. However, the ice layer gets splashed due to the treads in tyre and now we have the CRITICAL engine failure good 20 kts before V1.Now should the pilot continue with take off coz logically he should abort. This is a very tough decision a pilot has to make and I will like to have the opinion of one and all, because a scenario like this can happen to any one especially if you do a take off in Russia.

For me I will continue with take off and will try to justify on the response from your side. It has actually happened with me so lets share those tense moments

HAPPY LANDINGS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would continue with the take off as it will be difficult to stop the aircraft as the runway is slippery due the ice formation . Since the runway is slippery , I will require a longer distance to stop the aircraft safely . When I continue with the take-off and go around to do a landing , I have the maximum distance available for me to stop the aircraft safely . If i had aborted the take-off , i have less distance to stop the aircraft because from the point where i release my brakes and reach the speed of V1 , some distance is already covered and runway left behind is of no use to the pilot . This is my opinion on the scenario!!!!

HAPPY LANDINGS!!!!!

-- Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:39 pm --

I am new to this . So please correct me if i am wrong . Thank You very much!!!!!